Curse

Karate Jesus · Mar 04, 2009, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

last time I checked spawning powers *was* buffed to also increase duration of weapon spells...

You think that's a buff? SP needs a real buff and making it like strength is not it. I don't know anyone who actually plays Rits well (in PvP or PvE) that uses spawning powers at all. Sure it may be quasi-good for a MM Rit, but necros do that better with more energy and it may be decent for Spirit's Strength builds, but SS builds are outclassed by every physical profession.

Bobulation · Mar 05, 2009, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joseph Spiritmaster

Sorry Not signed, only on the reason that Spawning the way it is is Fine.... just you need to THINK on how to use it, it can be VERY powerful when you just spend about a minute to think about it... Something most people in today's game cant seem to do...

No, its not fine, it's horrible and needs a huge buff for it to see some play. Adding 2 seconds to a weapon spell is not worth speccing 12 spawning and going primary rit.

infamous16 · Mar 05, 2009, 01:44 AM // 01:44

the most i put into spawning power is 3, unless im running a ss build.

something needs to change, imo.

draxynnic · Mar 05, 2009, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Strength does not affect LOTS of warrior skills. ["watch yourself!"][healing signet]["charge!"]..... need I go on?

Divine Favor does not affect LOTS of monk skills. [banish][smite][bane signet].... need I go on?

Mysticism has no effect on most Scythe attacks, Leadership has no effect on Spear attacks, Critical Strikes has no effect on any spells, Soul Reaping has no effect on any spell outside of that attribute, it only comes in when things die.

Perhaps Fast Casting, Expertise, and Energy Storage are the only ones that do anything. Although even Energy Storage only boosts total energy, it doesn't affect skills from Air, Earth, Fire, or Water.

/unsigned, pointless use to the idea as you already have [destructive was glaive] if you want armor penetration for Channeling.

Counterarguments:
How many Warrior builds get no benefit from Strength? Back when the Tactics/Strength balance was different to what it is now, there was a tendency for Strength to only have a handful of points after the weapon attribute, Tactics, and any secondary profession attributes got their share, but it is very hard to make a Warrior build that gains no benefit at all from it. Even if you DO dump Strength entirely, Warriors have another primary attribute, one that requires no point investment at all: +20 armour with an extra +20 versus physical. And lets not forget how many Strength-based skills are seen as vital in today's Warrior builds.

How many Monk builds gain no benefit at all from Divine Favour? You could probably put one together, but I don't think it would be popular. Nor, with the possible exception of the Mesmer/Monk signet spammer, would I expect to see some other profession play to their secondary in order to combine Monk smiting skills with a 'more appropriate' primary attribute in any serious play.

Few Dervish builds fail to gain a benefit from Mysticism. Few Paragon builds fail to gain a benefit from Leadership. Few Assassin builds fail to gain a benefit from Critical Strikes. Those that do can certainly be played as a weaponswap from another class, but in each case, the actual choice of weapon is kinda incidental to each class. And are you really suggesting that Soul Reaping doesn't provide any benefit at all to a character not using Soul Reaping skills?

In short, none of the other professions are at risk of being pushed out of their role due to the situations where their primary attribute doesn't help.

Compare to the Ritualist, where in the current meta, the primary attribute almost NEVER helps. Spawning Power in its current form does nothing to break the paradigm that a spirit that comes under direct attack - or even that simply falls afoul of some AoE - is going to go down in seconds, and with pretty much all of the spirits that take damage on their effect triggering nerfed into oblivion, you don't see SP coming into play there either. In fact, except in the case of spirit spamming for specific (generally solo) quests, spirit use nowadays tends to be restricted to cheap tokens that will trigger conditional benefits of other skills. The popular weapon spells are those that only have a limited number of triggers - Splinter, Vengeful, Remedy - meaning that the weapon has often discharged before the full duration expires in the first place. Heals and Channeling zaps, of course, gain no direct benefit.

In short, while in all your examples the primary attributes still provide a benefit to pretty much any build you'd expect to see using that profession, Spawning Power provides nothing significant to the majority of current Ritualist builds.

The end result? Most people who are stubborn enough to continue playing Ritualists are dumping Spawning Power entirely to focus on Restoration and Channeling. Others use those builds on primary Necromancers and primary Elementalists to reap the rewards of energy-providing primary attributes on a profession whose skills were designed to be usable without them. With Spawning Power doing absolutely nothing, if they're only using one Ritualist attribute they have no incentive not to apart from the loss of the rune (whoop-de-doo), and even if they're using both Channeling and Restoration, running three attributes is not much harder than, say, running Channeling, Restoration and Spawning Power.

So, for the tl;dr version: The reason why Spawning Power needs fixing more than any other primary attribute is not because of the number of individual skills that don't benefit from Spawning Power... it's because it's the only primary attribute which provides no benefit to the majority of complete builds used by its profession. Even Mesmers get at least a token benefit from Fast Casting, but the typical Ritualist in the current state of the game gains nothing from Spawning Power, and conventional wisdom states that pretty much every primary Ritualist would be better off as a Necromancer primary with Soul Reaping. This is why Spawning Power needs to be improved.

MagmaRed · Mar 05, 2009, 02:48 AM // 02:48

draxynnic, I wasn't saying Spawning Power doesn't need to be 'fixed'. I was saying the OP's view on it and change is bad/wrong. Spawning Power does provide a nice benefit to certain builds. May not be builds that are being used, but that doesn't mean SP has no benefits. An Assassin using nothing but spells from Deadly Arts will get no energy management benefit from Critical Strikes, and a Monk using Smiting skills that do not target an ally will get no benefit from Divine Favor.

Point I was trying to make is that his version of Armor Penetration from SP will not make it universally good. In fact, there is already at least 1 skill that does what he wants. Yes, Spawning Power needs some help, but this is a very poor view on how to change it.

FengShuiDove · Mar 05, 2009, 03:02 AM // 03:02

I think the key here is "passive." Most of the good primary attributes, which, in fact, are *most* of the primary attributes, have a passive use that benefits that primary.

--Disclaimer: I'm not saying that all primary attributes are equal, but I am saying that with few exceptions they have good uses--

For example:

Strength (Warrior)

-Direct benefit: Increasing the effectiveness of your Warrior attacks. By adding armor penetration to each and every swing of your weapon, you're increasing overall efficiency without changing your skill-bar at all. Plus, there are a fair number of good skills under the Strength line.

-Indirect benefit: Strength increases the efficiency of ANY martial weapon, making Warrior bars viable running daggers, spear, scythe, etc. This allows for diversity in weapon choice, an indirect bonus to this primary attribute.

These benefits are both passive in nature.

Expertise (Ranger)

-Direct benefit: Expertise allows you to spam your attacks, low or high cost, and generally manage energy better than many professions with even a moderate investment.

-Indirect benefit: Again, diversity. Lowering attack costs makes Rangers viable to run scythes, hammers, daggers, spears, etc.

These benefits are both passive in nature.

Divine Favor (Monk)

-Direct benefit: Some great skills are tied to this attribute, and any time you cast a Monk spell you heal yourself or your ally for additional health points. This is an excellent benefit for a support character.

This benefit is passive.

============================

I could go on, but you see the point. Sure, Spawning Power is passive in that it increases efficiency without the use of skills or crafting builds around it, but where it differs is in the fact that it doesn't have any BENEFIT. In my opinion, something like "For each level of Spawning Power, your Ritualist skills are increased by 1%."

In other words, the attribute affected numbers of every skill increase by 1% for every rank in Spawning. Let's see a few examples:

[Spirit Light] - With my suggestion, and at 12 Resto + 12 Spawning, this skill heals for 175 instead of 156. This is equivalent to 1.583 health per rank in Spawning power.

This is tame in comparison to Divine Favor, but it's a step in the right direction, and is more diverse than Divine Favor. Let's take a look at a Channeling skill:

[Ancestor's Rage] - 89 damage becomes 100 damage with 12 Channeling and 12 Spawning. This is .9167 damage points per spec in Spawning. In comparison with, say, the increased damage output of Strength or the armor penetration most Elementalist Air skills have, this is quite tame. But again, it gives a reason for Rits to spec Spawning.

Perhaps the BEST example is the hybrid build. Let's say 12 Channeling, 9 Restoration, and 9 Spawning. A bar with a few key skills:

[Ancestor's Rage][Life][Weapon of Warding][Splinter Weapon]

[Ancestor's Rage] - 89 --> 100 damage
[Life] - 100 --> 109 health
[Weapon of Warding] - 8 --> 9 seconds
[Splinter Weapon] 41 --> 45 damage

So 9 Spawning still doesn't make up for dropping 3 points from Resto, but it gets close, and the added benefit to your Channeling skills is worth the compromise. So not only does this encourage hybrid primary Ritualist bars, but it encourages 12 (attribute), 12 Spawning, without being overpowered in either case. A different percentage, say 1.2% per attribute, may not be overpowered but may give the same benefits all around.

draxynnic · Mar 05, 2009, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

draxynnic, I wasn't saying Spawning Power doesn't need to be 'fixed'. I was saying the OP's view on it and change is bad/wrong. Spawning Power does provide a nice benefit to certain builds. May not be builds that are being used, but that doesn't mean SP has no benefits. An Assassin using nothing but spells from Deadly Arts will get no energy management benefit from Critical Strikes, and a Monk using Smiting skills that do not target an ally will get no benefit from Divine Favor.

Thing is, the Deadly Arts Assassin and purely offensive Smiting Monk are fairly niche builds, and the Monk and Assassin professions don't really lose much as a whole if they get farmed out to other professions with more suitable primary attributes. For the Ritualist, however, it's the builds that do use Spawning Power that are the niche builds while the majority of Ritualist-related can be farmed out to other professions. However...

Quote:

Point I was trying to make is that his version of Armor Penetration from SP will not make it universally good. In fact, there is already at least 1 skill that does what he wants. Yes, Spawning Power needs some help, but this is a very poor view on how to change it.

...This is true.

My first post in this thread was to propose an alternative - essentially, what FengShuiDove has proposed, except I'd combine it with a decrease on the numbers of affected skills before Spawning Power - say, about 5% (this should let the current 12/12 Chan/Res Ritualist achieve a similar or better capability with an 11/11/10 spread afterwards). Ritualists are still a good profession, it's just that, as the N/Rts show, the power of Ritualists has no connection to their primary attribute.

Sweet Mystery · Mar 05, 2009, 09:10 AM // 09:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by infamous16

sorry for trying to give a suggestion to help out spawning power...

That aint an issue, just a suggestion should be keyed to something useful for that profession. Two other suggestions here are good.. the energy gain and the skill power increase.... specific and beneficial. Armor pen, no...

Cebe · Mar 05, 2009, 09:57 AM // 09:57

If Spawning Power deserved a change it should be something relevant, but not overpowered, and relate to Item Spells.

Spawning Power already affects Binding Rituals, and Weapon Spells. The main issue with Item Spells is the energy loss that occurs on losing your weapon mods to the item you're holding. Perhaps Spawning Power could increase your energy by 3 for every 3 ranks in Spawning Power?

I know the old argument about "higher max energy doesn't mean energy management", but it's not about that. This is about giving primary Ritualists a slight bonus for using their own item spells.

DoomFrost · Mar 05, 2009, 09:59 AM // 09:59

What about:

For every 2 ranks in spawning power you have, creatures you create (or animate) gain one addition level (every 4 ranks for creatures not created by a binding ritual).

Possibly replace the health bonus with this, or add it along with a reduced health bonus. All this does is just give spirits a better armor level so they could take less damage from elemental or physical damage.

MagmaRed · Mar 05, 2009, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Thrasher

The increased duration on weapon spells hardly helps at all except when dealing with spells like...

[Warmonger's Weapon][Wailing Weapon][Weapon of Shadow] i think these are the only 3 that have this same ordeal

[weapon of warding][resilient weapon][brutal weapon][weapon of aggression][spirit light weapon][vital weapon][weapon of fury]

Some of those may not see much use, but some of those weapon spells are used frequently on many builds. The 1% boost looks like the best option so far, but I also agree with the idea that giving Rits a benefit from Spawning for holding an item would be good. Losing the mods from a weapon can hurt, give them a reason to hold an item and not need to drop it outside of the drop benefit.

Dr.Jones · Mar 05, 2009, 11:44 AM // 11:44

For each rank of Spawning Power you have, creatures you create (or animate) have 4% more Health, and weapon Spells you cast last 2% longer. Some Ritualist skills, especially those related to Spirit creatures, become more effective with higher Spawning Power.
heirs my thoughts as to things that would really help spawning power, change the creatures you create (or animate) have 4% more Vs Fire Damage this would be much more helpfully to a some one wanting to use spirits. Another thing that would help rits allot seeing as they cant make any weapons that help them cast binding rituals faster (And that for most rits in pve at least the by the time they are done making there first spirit 90% of the mob is dead already from others in the party.) they should ad something like this For every point in spawning power 1-20% chance of half a casting on binding rituals i think a change like that would be super helpful.

as for weapon and items keep it as is with the 2% last longer (maybe but if to 3 or 4) but add every time you use a weapon or item spell you gain 0-15 energy.

Disclaimer: i am not acting like i know everything but this is what i think would help rits the most and i think everything i said could be changed, but the basic ideas are to: Make spirits a little more resistant to fire damage, make casting binding rituals faster and give them some kind of energy gain.

also just like someone already said the main problem for spawning power is that Soul Reaping is always going to be better then Spawning power( in its current form), so any change that's made to spawning power would have to make it so you want to play as a primary rit.

also it makes me so sad that rits are so under used they have some of the coolest armors in the game lol....
Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Some of those may not see much use, but some of those weapon spells are used frequently on many builds. The 1% boost looks like the best option so far, but I also agree with the idea that giving Rits a benefit from Spawning for holding an item would be good. Losing the mods from a weapon can hurt, give them a reason to hold an item and not need to drop it outside of the drop benefit.

Agreed.

draxynnic · Mar 05, 2009, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

If Spawning Power deserved a change it should be something relevant, but not overpowered, and relate to Item Spells.

Spawning Power already affects Binding Rituals, and Weapon Spells. The main issue with Item Spells is the energy loss that occurs on losing your weapon mods to the item you're holding. Perhaps Spawning Power could increase your energy by 3 for every 3 ranks in Spawning Power?

I know the old argument about "higher max energy doesn't mean energy management", but it's not about that. This is about giving primary Ritualists a slight bonus for using their own item spells.

While it would certainly make item spells more attractive, it's still leaving a fairly wide range of potential Ritualist builds that gain no significant benefit from Spawning Power. I can understand wanting to keep things 'relevant', but most Ritualists still rely a lot on conventional spells - and this would still leave the argument that the benefit Spawning Power grants to the things it does influence is still... rather small, isn't it? Basically, what importance it has is only in weapon skills that aren't limited in the number of triggers (all of, what, 10 that see use?) and spirits that take damage when their effect occurs (and how many of THEM are still in use?).

It needs to be general, and ideally, I'd like to see it be something that brings the power of Ritualist secondaries back down to being more-or-less the power of, say, a Monk secondary rather than being almost a default.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Jones

as for weapon and items keep it as is with the 2% last longer (maybe but if to 3 or 4) but add every time you use a weapon or item spell you gain 0-15 energy.

Way too powerful. Imagine that on a weaponsmith Ritualist - Necromancers would get jealous of their energy management!

It might work if it happens when dropping an item or when a weapon skill wears off on you, kinda like Mysticism, but... ehhh, we already have Mysticism in the game, and it also seems to be possibly a little close to SR as well. *shrug*

spirit of defeat · Mar 05, 2009, 03:26 PM // 15:26

A lot has been suggested. In a lot of other threads.
One of the most simple idea's is increase level's instead of hp.

Just don't make it relate to energy. A lot of nerfs will be the result, even in other profs.

Dr.Jones · Mar 05, 2009, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Way too powerful. Imagine that on a weaponsmith Ritualist - Necromancers would get jealous of their energy management!

It might work if it happens when dropping an item or when a weapon skill wears off on you, kinda like Mysticism, but... ehhh, we already have Mysticism in the game, and it also seems to be possibly a little close to SR as well. *shrug*

0-15 energy is less then necros get from Soul Reaping 1-20 so if you put 1 in spawning power you would get 0 enrgy were as in soul reaping you would get 1 for 1 and that is how i came up with that number.

Luminarus · Mar 05, 2009, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Thrasher

The spells I was mentioning are skills where their recharge time is greater than their duration. Spells like these are really the only ones to benefit from SP. The thing is with the skills you posted is that putting some points in SP would be counter-productive, as you would rather want to spec 12/12 in resto/channeling or 12 channeling/10 resto and 8 in a utility line for whatever reason like HA. I would rather just recast those kind of skills and use the points for something better, unless I'm flag running. I'll put 8 points or so in SP and bring along lets say [Resilient Weapon] and [Weapon of Warding]. Then as I return to the main team and set the flag, I can cast those spells before I leave for another flag, therefore a longer duration will help because I may or may not be there to recast those weapon spells on the people in need. Otherwise its just better to leave SP to its lonesome self and use your attribute points in a better manner.

The extra duration on them can help as its passive energy management. If you are using WoW every 9 seconds thats 10e every 9 seconds. With spawning that can get to 10, 11 or i think possibly 12 seconds which reduces your energy consumption, and so in those cases is worth it.

infamous16 · Mar 05, 2009, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Jones

0-15 energy is less then necros get from Soul Reaping 1-20 so if you put 1 in spawning power you would get 0 enrgy were as in soul reaping you would get 1 for 1 and that is how i came up with that number.

think of vengeful weapon and WoR or Xinrae's, that would be a massive energy gain on every cast with 3 second recharge.

Tenebrae · Mar 06, 2009, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoomFrost

What about:

For every 2 ranks in spawning power you have, creatures you create (or animate) gain one addition level (every 4 ranks for creatures not created by a binding ritual).

Possibly replace the health bonus with this, or add it along with a reduced health bonus. All this does is just give spirits a better armor level so they could take less damage from elemental or physical damage.

Thats the Fking best thing ive read on this thread. I would sign for this change on pvp and 1 lvl added per rank on spawning power on PvE , it would be logic , balanced and bla bla ...

Shame on MMs ... maybe cap minions to 1 lvl per 2 ranks or cap the buff to only affect spirits creation.

draxynnic · Mar 06, 2009, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by infamous16

think of vengeful weapon and WoR or Xinrae's, that would be a massive energy gain on every cast with 3 second recharge.

This.

Dr. Jones, when I'd initially read your suggestion, I'd assumed that you meant the 0-15 range came in the same 0-15 attribute range that ANet normally lists the powers of skills in - in other words, equal to SR. With that clarification, I presume you mean the 1-20 range instead?

However, it's still a very powerful energy engine. SR actually requires targets to die, after all. With a modest investment in Spawning Power - say 10 - the Ritualist would be getting about 7 energy back per weapon spell. For the cheaper ones - Vengeful, WoR, Xinrae's, Splinter - the Ritualist would be getting an energy profit of 2/casting, pretty much completely under their control, while 10 energy weapon spells are only costing 3 energy. Now, costs of weapon spells could be increased to compensate, but...

The other side of the equation, and this goes to Celestial Beaver as well, is that while the Ritualist does have its unique skill types - binding rituals, weapon spells, item spells - the Ritualist does also have a range of more conventional skills that are just as important to the roles that a Ritualist can play. I'd rather not see the Ritualist straitjacketed into pretty much only using their quirks while the more conventional spells in the Ritualist line continue to be Necromancer staples.

That said, your suggestion would have the effect of providing incentive for the typical N/Rt build to go Ritualist primary instead, since they do tend to use the cheap, quick-casting weapon spells. I do worry, however, that it would result in making the cheap, quick-recharge weapon spells like Vengeful and Splinter even more indispensable than they already are.

Dr.Jones · Mar 06, 2009, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

This.

Dr. Jones, when I'd initially read your suggestion, I'd assumed that you meant the 0-15 range came in the same 0-15 attribute range that ANet normally lists the powers of skills in - in other words, equal to SR. With that clarification, I presume you mean the 1-20 range instead?

However, it's still a very powerful energy engine. SR actually requires targets to die, after all. With a modest investment in Spawning Power - say 10 - the Ritualist would be getting about 7 energy back per weapon spell. For the cheaper ones - Vengeful, WoR, Xinrae's, Splinter - the Ritualist would be getting an energy profit of 2/casting, pretty much completely under their control, while 10 energy weapon spells are only costing 3 energy. Now, costs of weapon spells could be increased to compensate, but...

The other side of the equation, and this goes to Celestial Beaver as well, is that while the Ritualist does have its unique skill types - binding rituals, weapon spells, item spells - the Ritualist does also have a range of more conventional skills that are just as important to the roles that a Ritualist can play. I'd rather not see the Ritualist straitjacketed into pretty much only using their quirks while the more conventional spells in the Ritualist line continue to be Necromancer staples.

That said, your suggestion would have the effect of providing incentive for the typical N/Rt build to go Ritualist primary instead, since they do tend to use the cheap, quick-casting weapon spells. I do worry, however, that it would result in making the cheap, quick-recharge weapon spells like Vengeful and Splinter even more indispensable than they already are.

yea agreed i think a better suggestion would be to make it so when ever you create an item, (ie an item spell) you get x amount of energey because i realized latter that there are a lot of rit item spells that you want to hold for longer periods of time. also that change to my first idea wouldnt include weapon spells.

but like i said before there is no reason really to go as a primary rit, right now.